Buen dia, mi gente, and welcome to La Vida Mas Chevere de Childfree Latinas, the only Spanglish podcast for childfree Latinas y Latines, helping us liberate ourselves from the toxic cultural brainwashing we all grew up with, so that we can design our best lives instead. I'm your host and resident childfree Latina, Paulette Erato. Mis amigües, what you're about to hear is part one of a two part episode with guest Yoreim Virella. It's basically two Puerto Ricans talking about being childfree and other ways we are nonconformist. Consider this a warning because we are two childless cat ladies that, in another time period, would have been called witches and treated as such, so we got a lot of thoughts about that. And, when two Boricuas start talking, you can't shut us up. And, as you might have guessed, we have some opinions. We're focusing in this episode on Yoreim's childfree journey, which is wildly different from mine, making it so much more important to share. Because even if we all end up in the same place of not wanting kids, for some people, the road to that target is not as easy and not necessarily a straight shot either. In this episode, there's a lot of examining of how religion influences this, how little support there is for motherhood in our society, despite the societal push for having children and how it all feels like one big scam. We mention bingos. And in case you've never heard that term, it refers to the repeated comments that we childfree people receive, such as, who's going to take care of you when you're old, or you don't know love until you've had a child, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These phrases are so common and repeated so often that it's become a game to see if you can check them all off your bingo card. I did a Substack post about this, which I'll link to in the show notes, and you can sign up for the Substack newsletter while you're there. Also, if you would like to share your childfree story on this show, you'll find a link for that in the show notes as well. I would love to hear your story and share it on La Vida Más Chévere. Back to Yoreim. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Yoreim is originally from Corozal, Puerto Rico. And she considers herself a multi passionate who enjoys combining a practical career with humanitarian work, content creation, and entrepreneurship. She has over a decade of experience in human resources, working in non profit, private, and federal sectors. While in the federal sector, she's had a unique opportunity to merge her human resources expertise with disaster response work. Yoreim has been involved in multiple national disaster and humanitarian missions, from deploying to Puerto Rico during Hurricane Maria, to supporting the CDC and OMB slash the White House leadership behind the scenes during the COVID 19 response efforts. She currently serves as the HR lead for her agency, where she's managing a volunteer workforce that supports departmental or interagency emergencies that are due to public health or humanitarian crises. In 2022, she launched Proyecto Tributo a Mi Tierra, TAMT, with her husband, a small business creating sustainable products like non toxic candles and 3D printed earrings that celebrate Puerto Rican culture. Proyecto TAMT also donates 10 percent of all its profits to Puerto Rican organizations. Besides being a proud Latina small business owner, Yoreim is also a wellness and lifestyle content creator in the DMV area. She enjoys traveling, crafting, and trying new restaurants. And honestly, she's just really freaking cool. So let's go get to know her more. Yoreim, como estas? Bien, bien, como estas tu? Todo bien? Bien, bien. I'm excited. Thank you so much for having me for sure. Yeah, I know. This is going to be great. You are a TikTok sensation. We know that. Okay. I'm not going to fight it. I appreciate the compliments. You don't have to go viral to be important. That's actually, that's very true. I fight for those ideas all the time. That's very true. Yeah. So you're here today to talk about being a childfree Latina and what that looks like, because life is good. Yes. Life is good. And we're going to talk about some misconceptions around being childfree as a Latina and also how our culture reacts to that. Let's jump in. What, what brought you to being childfree? Did you always know? What was the conversation like with your husband? Give us all the tea. Okay. So I, it was never clear for me if I wanted to be childfree. Like, I was going to live the life, like the majority of my friends. It was like, we're gonna have babies after 30, that was like, the age. Things have changed, but I come from a very, very small town in Puerto Rico, yeah, that is 80 percent Catholic, so the way of life, it's very similar, right? Like, you get educated, you get married, and then you have children, and you get lost in motherhood. That's just the way you get domesticated to be. So I feel even though it's like, yeah, I mean, I would be a good mom. I think when I hit my thirties, I felt obviously pressure just because some of my friends started having babies, right? And there was this disconnection that started happening with my friends that were moms and the ones that stayed behind without children, right? Like they're busy. For them, it's like their children are their entire life, but almost like some of our friends that decided not to have children were like, I mean, do I even want to do this? Because it looked like a lot of work. But it also came about when I was kind of going back and forth with it when I started really questioning it because I do have health issues. So I've been suffering from an autoimmune disease since I'm 24. As you grow older, I have flares coming back. There are stages of my life that I feel great and there are stages that I don't feel that great. And obviously I have a great health insurance over here, a great job, and even with that, the level of care I have received has not been great. I feel like becoming a mother would have put a burden in a sense of, and I know babies are not burdens, but for me it would have been an extra stress to my life. And that's when I started questioning. And even to the point, I'm going to be very vulnerable here. When you start seeing your friends having babies and you stay behind not having babies and almost there's this pressure that you feel like if I don't have babies, I might not be included. Or stay connected with those people. And to the point that I felt like, ah, maybe I just need to have babies because I want to be. But these are the things that you think. And I feel like we don't discuss this a lot. And then obviously I took myself a pep talk. I'm like, come on, like you're better than this. Like you have to live like who you are. I think it became clear that that maternal instinct wasn't there. And I'm like, I think I'm gravitating towards not having children. And then when my husband and myself discussed it, he was almost like in that same page, just because I, we are in a stage of the world where I feel there's not a support for motherhood in general. This culture and society, they love telling you, oh well, you have to have children, you have to procreate, this is what you have to do as a female. But at the same time, there's no government help, there's no support. Everything is around the woman carrying all the burden while the men go and carry out the successful careers. And for you to be doing it all, you have to be in this state of like overdrive with no support. And I feel like that became so clear to me that in a sense I said, maybe this is not my time to participate in the system that sees me as a female as almost like less than. And if I have a child, my quality of life will decline for sure in that aspect, just because I have other things going on. And I think that's when it became clear that I'm like, okay, so I think I'm going to do this childfree thing for sure. How old were you when, when it became very clear? I think 34. Oh, okay. Yeah. 34. How long had you been dating your husband at that point? Oh my God. So we've been dating since college. Oh, okay. We've been together 20 something years and we've been married is almost 15 years now in June, but we've been together forever. So yeah, I think we have this level of comfort because we've been together for so long, these deeper conversations are easier to have. Yeah. His values and mine are so aligned. He's my person intellectually, and we can kind of talk about these deeper conversations. And I think that's where we're almost like met each other at that time. So there was no pushback, if that makes sense. That's beautiful. Did you get pushback from your family? It's interesting. My mother in law and my mom have been very supportive of our choices because we've always been kind of unconventional, if that makes sense. And I think because we've always been like that. When I say unconventional, I think I mentioned I come from a very small town. We were baptized and we did like all the Catholic things that you usually do, all the sacraments and all that, because you're in that family, you just have to do it. That when we decided to get married, both of us Catholics, raised Catholic, we did not want it to be married in the church. And obviously that was one of the pretty much saying like you don't want to be part of the family in a way. Also my grandmother, rest in peace, she was directors of private Catholic schools. Like she was in it. I went to Catholic school. So there's just very religious background. So I remember my mom and she got a little upset. But then she let go. She's like, that's just you. My mother in law was very respectful because she's just very, she's religious, but she understands there's different ways of living. So she was like, this is your decision and I'm going to help you guys just do whatever you want to do. My grandmother got really mad at me and stopped talking to me like for a month, but then she was fine. She was like dancing all around the wedding. So it's just funny how, it's just this tantrum and then it just went back. So she got upset, but she was fine after. So I think because we've always been kind of doing our own thing, uh, I don't feel we get a lot of, at least to our face. Oh, you shouldn't be doing this. You should have babies. I'm not sure what happens behind doors. I don't care. As long as you're not telling me the rest, I'm fine. That's great. I mean, that's obviously the better outcome than the way it could have gone, right? Like, I'm sure you may have expected some pushback, but that's wonderful. And pretty progressive, especially for your mother in law, who is just like, Okay, I don't need grandkids from you. Well, I mean, like I said, like, she doesn't tell me and I don't think she's ever made any comments, those past aggressive comments that you may get from family members. The bingos? I have not gotten from, from my, obviously my nucleus, this family, the ones that I'm very close to. I've gotten more from strangers and friends, which is so out of, yeah. Isn't that funny that people we don't know and whose lives are not affected by us feel that they have the right to question us as if they're gonna change our mind. I don't know, man. Tell me if this is true for you. Anytime I have been confronted with those really weird comments and like the bingos, let's be honest, that's what they are. There has always been someone else that jumps in and makes the argument for me. And I feel very fortunate to have those people just around. Where the allies, for lack of a better term, exist, and I know that's not true for everyone. And because of our cultural background, because Latinos tend to be very religious and conservative, it's surprising when we don't get the pushback, but I think like you, my parents were used to me being unconventional as well. I think that really plays like when you're a certain way, people, maybe they try to socialize you in a certain way. And it's like, you know what? I give up. That's just who she is. Which is fine because you, you shown who you are, right? Like you've been very expressive of your values, what you stand for. So I think to the point people start respecting that. So I'm glad to hear that too, for sure. Yeah. Are you the first childfree person in your family? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. See, cause I'm not. No really? Okay.. No, I'm not. And I have, I have family on both sides, on the Puerto Rican side and the Mexican side that did not have children. You are the trailblazer for your family and you feel like you're not doing anything right. But you're sitting here setting the example for other possibilities. It's interesting because I definitely don't consider myself that, but I do know that me creating space and talking about this more because it used to be, obviously, I'm very proud of being able to stand my ground on and live my life authentically. But also it's weird because when you decide to go childfree, your mere existence triggers people. Oh yeah. It doesn't matter what you do. Like you can be quiet, calladita, people will still get upset. Like just by existing. I work in human resources, so I have been trained to be diplomatic in the way I deliver messages. So I do consider a lot of people's feelings when I discuss things. So there are certain things I don't like to discuss in the open, just because I don't want to trigger and all that, but I'm like, just me existing triggers people. Might as well just be open on how I live my life and maybe I can inspire someone who's struggling right now who needs to listen to these stories, if that makes sense. So, I've been a little more upfront now about it just because of that reason. If I can make a social impact in any shape or form, I'll, I'll be happy to put my face out. That is exactly why you're here. So I always say that this show is all about presenting examples for other people to see what a life without children can look like from the people actually living it. We are just examples of a different way life can be lived. So the fact that you are out here doing it, and, and now feeling more comfortable being vocal about it is fantastic. And that means that we have one more person that we can look at. You know, you were part of the non mame lineup. So there was almost 30 other people who are also just examples of what life can look like if you make a different set of decisions. And they are decisions that are available to everyone. And that is, more than anything, what I want to provide an audience with. That your life is not scripted, even though it feels that way, right? It feels like we are being sold a specific way to be, especially as women. And hey, there are people who are threatening to take that all away from us. So we got to keep fighting the good fight. But in spite of all of that, there are still people who believe in this day and age that what we are as people is wrong. And they are feeding that to their children and to their spheres of influence. But someone in that sphere of influence might not agree with that. And they're going to think, is something wrong with me? Right! No, here are two women right now showing you, especially if you're Latina, that there is nothing wrong, it's just different. And you can also be happy and thrive outside of this expectation. Absolutely, yes. It is important for us to show up, to show there is different ways of living. And that can be a very fulfilling and joyful life. Life is great once you realize what your boundaries are, and being childfree is just a boundary. It's just a boundary. And I think that also, even people who are childfree don't recognize that. You've laid down a very big boundary in your life, and you should be excited about the fact that you were able to do that, because now you can set other boundaries. Because the other thing that we have in our Cultura is people pleasing tendencies. Yes. And it's, it's hard to put those boundaries in place, but hey, y'all already did. So congratulations. Right. Just being out there doing this and like you said, like this boundary and being courageous. Because it really takes a lot of thinking and deeper conversations to get to this point, to decide not to have children, more than actually having the child. So yeah, it's a lot of people pleasing tendencies that I have to do a lot of work around too. So... Right? We're all affected. We're all affected in our culture about this. We don't need to beat a dead horse, but it's hard being a woman and it's hard being an opinionated woman. Because it's very easy to paint us as something negative. What they did to women like us 400 years ago was drown them for being witches. In a different time and place, we would not be able to be this open about our desires. And as far as we've come, we need to protect that for the future generations. Let me know if you agree with this. I feel like what I do isn't necessarily just for me and for you. It's for anybody who's watching this who is growing up. Yes. I know I can impact other people's children, not by having some of my own, but by being, again, an example for them. I can be a role model. And that isn't to say I'm trying to recruit people to be childfree, although it is a nice way to live. I'm just trying to provide you context. Yes, I totally agree with that. And there's a lot of people that feel isolated, especially when they're debating on having children or not. And if we're not out there showing that we have these amazing life and we've made the right decisions, they will continue to feel isolated and alone. And who knows what can happen, right? Because isolation and loneliness will drive you to do other things that are pretty negative. So I think it's important to showcase very strong women that are making their own decisions, are living by their own values. So we are these role models and inspire the next generation to take courage and be okay with the decisions they make. Because they're always going to be allies around them, even though It doesn't feel like that sometimes. So yeah I'm with you. The most important takeaway I'd want somebody listening to this conversation to have is that if you are feeling lonely, we've all kind of been there at one point or another. I'm sure when you were going through your diagnosis journey, that was scary and lonely because you couldn't figure out what was going on. I've been through a diagnosis journey as well. And that was, there were days where I was terrified. But I was never terrified of being alone for being childfree. And there was a certain freedom in that. And it was like, one less thing to worry about in my life. I was like, no boundaries there. I don't, I don't have to worry about what's on the other side of it because I live over here. Like we were saying before, having boundaries it was one of the best ways to liberate yourself of societal expectations or toxic norms or toxic traditions. Because lots of people have made decisions that they later regret, all because they thought they were supposed to do this this way. Yes. Mm hmm. And I don't have those regrets, really. Because I learned myself and I learned how to put down boundaries. How do you feel about boundaries? Boundaries are very, very important. There's a pattern that I've seen around friends, family, strangers, and it's that a lot of people are not living their lives they want to live. So you see very often double lives happening because of that resentment, bitterness. There's a lot of passive aggressiveness because they're not. Living authentically. Because they are afraid, like we say in Spanish,"por el que diran." That's very normal, especially in our Latin community. It's el que diran, what would she say about me if I do something different? Boundaries are not reinforced in that, in that aspect. Plus, religion plays such a huge role in how we, as Latinos, really express ourselves in the world. And I think boundaries are one of the, the best things you should work on, in order to live the life you always wanted to live. So I think that's super important. And kind of breaking down those barriers in order to be just yourself and be happy what you choose or the life that you chose to live. If that makes sense. And you don't have to be worried about being drowned as a witch. Yeah. That's important. Not yet, anyway. Hopefully never. We don't want to go back to those times, please. No. No. Let's put it out there now that we are going to continue progressing, not regressing. Right. You said you wanted to talk about some misconceptions about your childfree life. Why don't you tell me some of the ones that you encounter? Oh, I think the feeling that I see when a lot of people is like they feel bad when we don't have kids because they feel we're lonely and that our life doesn't have meaning. So there's this assumption that when you don't have kids, it's like, oh, I mean, if you cannot have this big purpose or divinely order thing happening for you, you're definitely not happy because how could you be? And it's completely false. I mean, I know so many people that are thriving in they're childfree selection or lifestyle and you can absolutely live a very fulfilling life and a very joyful life being childfree. So it's just always very interesting to me that people just make that assumption of you. You're just lonely. When I was growing up, it was always like if there was this woman who was single or a woman who didn't have children and let's say the person was bitter because remember we can be better with kids and without kids. I'm not sure why everyone is putting that in just the childfree community. So if the person was bitter it was like always like when she's not married, she doesn't have kids. So these stereotypes that are very pervasive and this is what you pass down to kids that are growing up absorbing this information. And this is how they literally select all these opinions and the way they're socialized in order to see the world, right? So everything people say to us, especially kids, will be absorbed. It's hard not to say sometimes when you're like in your early twenties or a teenager that this is who you are because in order to know who you are, you need to deconstruct and that takes a lot of time and self awareness. And that's why life experience wisdom contributes to seeing life in a different way. So yeah, the misconception of loneliness and not having a meaningful life. And that our life are not important. Yeah. That I've noticed too, that a lot of people do things that are not conscious. That's all, because they don't have time to think or they don't want to think about things. And sometimes I feel in women that have children, they feel there's this almost superiority complex that comes or feeling they're mothers and they have the title mothers. And when you don't have that title, so it's like, you're less in the totem pole. Because children give social capital and there's this automatic way of seeing a mom and dad as more empathic and compassionate and ultimately saying they're a good human being even if they're not because the stereotype is that if you have children you must be someone good. Which is completely false, and we see this over and over again. So it's just interesting how I'm able to see different perspectives, but yeah, I just feel like the loneliness, the meaningless life, and feeling like there's more importance because of the title of parents, it is what I see a lot. When we, a lot of us, are doing amazing work that is very socially impactful. So, maybe we don't have children, but in a way, we are almost like mothers to other people and strangers, because you are guiding them or just sharing your wisdom. That's part of being full of motherly love, right? The way we see it. So I feel like we have those roles in different capacities. You don't have to have a child to be an amazing human being and to create impact in the world. My favorite thing to tell religious people when they look down on people not having children, Jesus didn't have children. Your Lord and Savior didn't have time to have children. He was out rabble rousing. Right? Yeah. We don't know if he actually did or didn't, but the story that has been passed on, the tradition of it is that no, he did not have children. So it's, it's interesting that if he did, they were written out of history. Of course. Please make sense of that for me. How does that make sense? If children are the ultimate goal and being a parent, like you said, it's a status symbol. Yeah. Why, if Jesus had kids, do we not know about them? They're this like dirty secret. So I would love to have that debate on this show. Obviously, organized religion has a lot to do and how our Latin communities view the family structure. If you go to the Christian Bible, it's specifically, everything is centered about God or Jesus, very male centric. All of the important symbols in the Bible were men, 12 disciples. And we talk about one of the most important spots, the connection between God and the Normies, is priesthood. And it was only allowed men to serve for a long, long time. So we have a very patriarchal religion that is very ingrained in how we view things. So I feel because women also have been shown in a very supportive role inside the Bible. And the Virgin Mary is the example and the epitome of what a good woman should be, right? And what a good mother should be, that it has influenced Uh, the man needs to be the head of the household. And I think I mentioned this before, because Virgin Mary is such a role model in our Latin community, it also brings to the point that it's like women, you're here to support your husband because there's so many verses of the Bible that says this over and over again. You're a supportive role, you're not the main character. I'm the main character, right, like Jesus, God is the main character. But you are the supportive role, you're the woman, and you're here to serve me, serve men, and actually procreate, because that's your job, to bring me children. And that's why I feel like it's so hard, because of Catholicism, and I think I saw some data the other day, and I need to check the sources for sure. 53 percent of households are still inside the Latin community, do proclaim themselves as Catholics. So it's pretty high. It has been declining though for the last couple of years. There's a lot of people doing more conscious work and deconstructing, but it's still pretty high. And it still permeates inside our culture. And I feel like that's one of the reasons. I know there's a lot of new people coming out, especially in the Latina community that are childfree. They have platforms to talk about this. But it's not as normal like we see in other cultures because of the issue with religion. So I think that it's hard to have those conversations because it feels like it's divinely ordered. Like if you have, you're here to have children and it's not a choice, so you cannot question it. Like, everything in the Bible. You cannot question it. I remember, obviously, I went through all the sacraments, remember I was very religious, and I remember asking this really crazy question since I was young. And it was always about, like, you cannot question God, like, it's just what it is. So this, this is very ingrained in our family structures, and I mentioned this before, too, but It's seen saintly, holy to have children. To the point that it's like, if you don't have them, then you cannot be that important, which I feel like it brings into that division, which is sad to see. This division we have inside the group of childfree women and women that are mothers, there are people that get it, but there are people that don't get it. And I think, obviously, in order to bridge that gap, because we need understanding in both communities, are the moms that get it. And the childfree Latina that get that part of motherhood. And the other thing I see a lot is, like, it's so normalized to almost give yourself completely and disappear as a human being, because you now you're a mother. So you cease to exist because your whole role is just being a mother. So if you want something more, it's frowned upon. That's why a lot of people, especially mothers struggling with this culture that don't support them, struggle saying out loud, "Well, I mean, I love my children, but the motherhood experience is not that great. And it's not the way that people sold it to me." Because there's extremes way of thinking. It's like, you say that, you don't love your children. That's not true. You can love your children, but at the same time, you know how hard it is, because there's no support. There's no, literally, not support. I mentioned this too, obviously, social capital, like, children seen as a social capital, and I feel like other people, um, hide behind having children. And I know, personally, a lot of bad parents. A lot of bad parents. It's the status symbol. But people don't say that out loud, right? I'm not sure if they think it's a secret, but for me it's not a secret. And I've talked with many, and we all see it. So, if they think it's a secret, I'm not sure what's going on there. But it's just this contribution. And even, a lot of people can say, Ah, well, Yoreim, I was never that religious. And I always knew, like, I had to have children. And what people don't understand is that you don't need to be super religious to be this way. Because organized religion has influence. Our policies and our cultural norms, even if you don't know, that influence the way you see certain roles in society. We all have different perspectives and how we were raised and all that, but it's more connected than we think it is. So you really don't need to be in the church every day for those stereotypes to influence the way you see the world. We also see this in movies. It's everywhere. The stereotypes are everywhere and that influences how we see everything. Yep, hundred percent. You are speaking my language. Obviously, we're on the same side of this debate, but it's so true that so many of the ways that we see the world are through this lens of this idea that has been sold since time immemorial that women have this job and men have this job and God forbid you want something more. Or you want something different. Again, when women were unconventional in the past, they were deemed as witches, they were cast out of society. But back to your major point here is that we still push the ideal as a society on women that they need to be mothers, they need to do this thing. And give them zero support in doing that. So you're setting people up for failure. Because if the family around them is toxic, what kind of support are you inviting into this new human's life? Yes. Then that just perpetuates a cycle. And we want healthy adults running around making decisions that impact the rest of us. We don't want broken adults, people who grew up in toxic households and abusive households. Making children is a choice. I wish that every person who decided to have a child did the work on themselves first and healed their own wounds before bringing a new life and starting over with that. Because all too often, what I have seen myself, is that you have people whose wounds make them bad parents in the sense that they view their children not only as social capital, but as, after a certain point, as competition. Yes. And that is so disgusting. And yet they just keep having children. They keep making more competition for themselves. And I don't understand that mentality. What you're causing is more broken adults. Yes. Those people eventually grow up to be adults, and, and, and then what? You haven't given them the support they need to be fully functioning adults. And, great if they can go to therapy, but that's not accessible to everyone. Oh my god, yes. I mean, everything you're saying, this is like topics that I'm very passionate about, and I agree 100%. I do want to add to the discourse... You can find out what Yoreim wants to add to the discourse in the next episode. In the meantime, there are two other episodes I want to direct your attention to that echo and continue to validate some of the sentiments that Yoreim and I shared in this conversation. The first one is number 36, The Dangers of Calladita Se Ve Mas Bonita with Pam Covarrubias, in which Pam talks about questioning religion too. That time was from the Mexican perspective, and yet the questions are the same. The other is episode 57, Repercussions of Media Bias on Arabs, Muslims, and the Childfree, with Professor Evelyn Alsultany, where we discussed how her book dissects how certain societal attitudes impact U. S. global policy. All these links, including the one for Professor Alsultany's books, are in the show notes. Till next time, follow Yoreim on her socials, check out her online shop for Proyecto TAMT, and that's a burrito. Hey, mira, if this episode made you feel some kind of way, dígame. Dm me on Instagram, or send me a text. You can do that right from your phone. If you want to be a guest on the show and put your story out there too you, check out the guest form on my website at pauletterato. com slash guest. Yep, just my name, pauletterato. com slash guest. Y no se te olvide que hay más perks when you join the newsletter. Todos estos links están en los show notes. Muchísimas gracias for your support y hasta la próxima vez, cuídate bien.